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***See below for a complete topic breakdown.***

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What would it mean to live in a world informed by a kinship worldview and how would that contrast with the world we live in now?

This is the topic of this episode of the podcast.
Our guests are Four Arrows and Darcia Narvaez

Wahinkpe Topa (Four Arrows) & Darcia Narvaez, PhD Indigenous worldview interview ATTMind podcastWahinkpe Topa (Four Arrows) is a made relative of the Oglala Lakota and a Sun Dancer/Pipe Carrier with the Medicine Horse Tiospaye. A recipient of a number of awards and recognitions for his activism in behalf of Indigenous Peoples, and the author of many books, articles, papers and presentations on Indigenous worldview. Former Dean of Education at Oglala Lakota College, he is currently a professor in the School of Leadership Studies at Fielding Graduate University.

Darcia Narvaez is Professor Emerita of Psychology at the University of Notre Dame (Indiana, USA). She is a Fellow of the American Psychological Association, the American Educational Research Association, and the American Association for the Advancement of Science. She studies moral development and human flourishing from an interdisciplinary perspective, integrating anthropology, neuroscience, clinical, developmental, and educational sciences. She has published hundreds of papers and over 20 books including the multi-award-winning book, Neurobiology and the Development of Human Morality: Evolution, Culture and Wisdom. She serves as president of and hosts the webpage

Together, they are the authors of the recent book, Restoring the Kinship Worldview: Indigenous Voices Introduce 28 Precepts for Rebalancing Life on Planet Earth, which features “Selected speeches from Indigenous leaders around the world–necessary wisdom for our times, nourishment for our collective, and a path away from extinction toward a sustainable, interconnected future.”

In this interview, we explore various precepts of the Kinship or indigenous worldview that are presented in their book. Precepts such as “Courage and Fearless Trust in the Universe”; “Nonanthropocentrism”; “Ceremony as Life Sustaining”; “Centrality of Gratitude”; and “An Emphasis on Heart Wisdom”.

We also explore the basis of what a worldview is and why our guests propose there are only two, the indigenous/kinship worldview and the dominant/Western worldview. We go in-depth on the historical rise and impact of the dominant worldview and the intergenerational cycle of trauma it propagates; the left brain / right brain dynamic and how it aligns with worldview, perception, and behavior; how generations of anthropocentrism impact our capacity to perceive our interconnection with nature and each other; a substantial dive into death, dying, grief, and ceremony; and what it means to become fully human.

It was truly a pleasure to feature Four Arrows for the first time, and Darcia Narvaez for the 4th time (previous features are here, here, and here).


discuss this episode on our subreddit

Episode Clips




  • How Four Arrows came into the indigenous worldview through a near-death experience
  • How Darcia Narvaez came into the indigenous worldview through science
  • An explanation of “shifting baselines” and why understanding it matters
  • The dominant worldview, religion, trauma, the Roman conquest, and colonialism
  • What is a worldview and why there are only two worldviews that exist: Western/Dominant and Kinship/indigenous
  • Exploring these two worldviews and the history of their dynamic
  • The intergenerational cycle of trauma embedded in us through the Dominant worldview
  • How generations of anthropocentrism impact our capacity to perceive our interconnection with nature and each other
  • Feeling interconnected with life decreases fear of death and vice versa
  • The left brain / right brain dynamic and how it aligns with worldview, perception, and behavior
  • Exploring a visit from some giant birds
  • A meditation practice on death from Four Arrows | Having a death song
  • The difference between courage and fearlessness | trust the universe
  • Ceremony and the indigenous worldview’s impact on death and dying
  •  Grief in the indigenous worldview vs the dominant worldview
  • Some anecdotes of psychedelic ceremony from Four Arrows
  • Being in relationship with the spirit of psychoactive plants
  • “Last resortism” in the medical system and Four Arrows’ journey with cancer
  • James’ thoughts on the value of leaning on last resortism to institute psilocybin for dying people
  • Cultivated interconnectedness and relationship throughout life and death | grieving together and ceremony 
  • Becoming fully human—neurobiologically and culturally
  • Does it make sense to have hope that we will change our ways before it’s too late?
  • Further links and contact information for our guests
  •  Some closing words in Lakota from Four Arrows



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